Trying to Make Big (Chaos) Knights Work

I’ve been in a bit of a funk with 10th edition, and it’s really colored my opinion of my first and favorite faction. I took Chaos Knights to the world Championships last November, took a respectable 4-4 win/loss record and came second in painting, and instead of coming away from the event hyped to play more 40k, I basically just wanted a break.

So I took one, and barely played 3 games between worlds and the dataslate last week.

Now the 2024 GT season is rolling up, and I want to go hang out with my friends at GTs and that means having a list that I want to play that I can be proud of with respect to painting.

All that is to say, I’m now casting about for a Chaos Knights list that has the following criteria:

1. Must include at least one (but preferably two) titanic knights.
2. Must be interesting enough to play that I don’t get bored.
3. Must be flexible enough to play fixed or tactical missions.

Including a Titanic Knight

I’ll start with restriction one, which means we need to look at the Titanic Knights and figure out which ones are even worth considering. I’m restricting myself to the Abhorrent and Tyrant Chassis, as I don’t own any Cerastus Knights and I don’t own any Acastus Knights.

Some quick common thoughts. First, a 3+ Armor Save and no melee invulnerable save is really hard to stomach in 10th edition compared to the glut of 2+ save vehicles, many of which have melee invulnerable saves, that other factions have easy access to (obviously the Magaera/Styrix can ignore the invulnerable save complaint).

Second, not being able to fall back and shoot (as was possible in ages past) makes the playstyle of big knights fairly all or nothing – either they need to be comfortable wading into the enemy masses or they need to be comfortable sitting back and doing nothing but shooting all game, and they need to be able to “make back their points” while doing so.

Knight Abominant: While a seemingly reasonable point cost at 400, I don’t think this model does nearly enough things to justify that investment.

The reason this model worked in 9th edition was insane levels of tankiness, having access to no rerolls, 1-3 always missing, -1 damage, and often -1 to hit without condition, as well as a 5+ Feel No Pain if you could roll a 6+ during the psychic phase.

Its output was always anemic, it was never a credible melee threat unless you invested a ton of points into enhancements that no longer exist, and now that the tanky build is dead and buried there really isn’t a point in bringing this model unless you’re planning on doing nothing for rounds 1 and 2 before pushing hard on turn 3 to try and take advantage of the army rule. (I think this is an ill advised idea).

I would pay somewhere around 300 points for this model in its current state, and maybe not even that. If you compare it to something like Mortarian at 325 the Primarch outshines it in durability, damage output, and support effects (and comes with good army rules to boot).

Knight Desecrator: The hybrid shooting knight, 425 points feels like two much for 3 (admittedly very good) tank busting shots when you can get the same (better honestly) damage output for less points with two Brigands, who are also faster, easier to hide, and can perform an anti-infantry role as well. Its melee threat is reasonable, but hitting on 3s with no access to rerolls or hit fixing is always swingy on this small of a dice pool. The re-roll aura is excellent, but I don’t know if it’s better than having a cheaper knight (Rampager) or something better at shooting (Despoiler and Tyrant)

Knight Despoiler: I actually really quite like the Knight Despoiler right now. I think its innate re-roll one hit and or wound per phase is a really strong ability compared to the other Titanic Knights, its battleshock bonus is corner case useful, and the ability to dramatically customize its loadout is a huge boon. I could see playing one of these in a list with some combination of gatling/battle cannon/thermal spear and no melee weapons.

Edit: I didn’t realize it’s hit OR wound roll and not both. I am no longer particularly interested in the Despoiler.

Knight Magaera/Styrix: These are both comically overcosted for what they do. The Hekaton Siege Claw is a shadow of its former self, as is the Magaera Lightning Cannon. The Styrix Graviton Crusher has anti-vehicle 2+ and then an ability which penalizes the movement of enemy infantry that it shot at, which doesn’t really matter because it only has a range of 18.

The rad-cleanser, a formerly amazing and unique weapon only has a niche use case and is also not particularly interesting compared to the other anti-infantry torrent weapons in the game.

The ignore modifiers aura is actually very intriguing, especially on Brigands, and the Magaera’s self healing is good, but these both suffer from the same issue as the Abominant – no output, too expensive.

Knight Rampager: The poster boy of “this is what a knight should probably be like”, the Rampager is the cheapest – 385 points – and extremely specialized to its role as a melee nightmare. It’s faster than a normal knight, hits absurdly hard, and has a good bonus for Karnivores that hang out with it. I think this is one of the most viable titanic knights, and even compares reasonably well to multiple Karnivores into many targets.

At the end of the day, I think that the Rampager, Tyrant, and maybe Despoiler are worth considering in a list at this point.

“Interesting” to Play

This is where my issues get more subjective, and kind of boils down to my funk with 10th. Suffice to say I want the list to have a fair amount of activation flexibility and be able to play in both phases of the game.

Flexible Enough for Fixed or Tactical

Basically this means the list is going to include a minimum of two units of Nurglings. These guys are the only way that Knights can realistically do things like Deploy Teleport Homers or Cleanse without giving up massive value activations.

One of the lists I’m flirting with has six units in it, and aims to take Cleanse and Deploy Teleport Homers as just the baseline fixed objectives, with the option to flex into other things as needed.

Secondaries are perhaps the primary issue that Knights have now. Durability and firepower don’t mean much when the scenarios can ask you to be anywhere on the table and you don’t have native deep strike on basically anything.

Putting it Together, List 1:

Chaos Knights
Traitoris Lance Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Knight Rampager (415 Points)
– 1x Diabolus heavy stubber
– 1x Reaper chainsword
– 1x Warpstrike claw
• Enhancements: Lord of Dread (Something in melee takes a battleshock test before combat)

Knight Tyrant (550 Points)
• Warlord •
– 1x Brimstone volcano lance
– 1x Ectoplasma decimator
– 2x Gheiststrike missile launcher
– 1x Titanic feet
– 2x Twin daemonbreath meltagun
– 1x Twin desecrator cannon
• Enhancements: Panoply of the Cursed Knights (Reduce AP against this model by 1)

BATTLELINE

War Dog Brigand (170 Points)
-1x Armoured feet
– 1x Avenger chaincannon
– 1x Daemonbreath spear
– 1x Havoc multi-launcher

War Dog Brigand (170 Points)
-1x Armoured feet
– 1x Avenger chaincannon
– 1x Daemonbreath spear
– 1x Havoc multi-launcher

War Dog Brigand (170 Points)
-1x Armoured feet
– 1x Avenger chaincannon
– 1x Daemonbreath spear
– 1x Havoc multi-launcher

War Dog Karnivore (140 Points)
– 1x Havoc multi-launcher
– 1x Reaper chaintalon
– 1x Slaughterclaw

War Dog Karnivore (140 Points)
– 1x Havoc multi-launcher
– 1x Reaper chaintalon
– 1x Slaughtercla

War Dog Moirax (160 Points)
– 1x Armoured feet
– 1x Rad cleanser
– 1x Siege claw
– 1x Volkite veuglaire

ALLIED UNITS

Nurglings (40 Points)
– 3x Nurgling Swarm
-3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings (40 Points)
– 3x Nurgling Swarm
-3x Diseased claws and teeth

And I even played a game with it, so buckle up for a mini battle report.

I was playing against Death Guard, his list was roughly:

Mortarion
Typhus
Lord of Virulence
3 more Characters I can’t remember the names of (high quality content here)

Plagueburst Crawler x2
Bloat Drone x3 (one with mower, 2 with big guns)
Rhino x2
Plague Marine x5 (two units) with melta, plasma, and triple Bubotic Melee Weapon
Deathshroud Terminators x2
Deathguard Cultists
2x Nurglings

I randomed Purge the Foe which I am probably always going to be slightly advantaged on, and he took Deploy Teleport Homer and Bring it Down.

For my part, I took Bring it Down and Assassinate.

We deployed fairly conservatively. I chose not to deep strike my Nurglings, but in hindsight they probably should have just started off the table to deny him purge points on turn 1.

He kept both Deathshroud units and Typhus off the table, as well as his Lord of Virulence and one unit of Nurglings. I lost the roll off for first (which I think I prefer) and we were off to the races.

Round 1:

Chris pushed up the table on the top and bottom, doing his best to tempt me into his firing arcs. He also hid Mortarian from my Tyrant and started the choo-choo train of Plagueburst Crawlers from his deployment zone.

The shooting phase saw all but one Nurgling from one unit die, and the top and bottom objectives firmly under Deathguard control.

I responded with measured aggression. The top objective had two Brigands walk into Melta range of everything, plus the Karnivore and Rampager move up. I put the purple Karnivore in the center to bait Mortarian and to make the next turn primary score lower as it requires you to control more for the second half.

I had some mixed success with my shooting phase, killing the top Rhino and Bloat Drone casually, but leaving both the Plagueburst Crawler and Rhino in the bottom zone on a single wound. I also killed all the Cultists and picked up all but one model and the character leaders from the Plague Marines on the top zone. Something in the top objective exploded, dealing 3 damage to my Rampager and Karnivore.

Charging took out the unit of Plague Marines, and I passed over scoring all the purge points.

Round 2:

This turn, Chris ran the Rhino away, put Mortarian right in the middle, and shot up my models, killing the bottom Brigand and the top Karnivore in the shooting phase. He also charged Mortarian into my Karnivore and took him out. Nurglings came down in a deployment zone corner for max teleport homers.

I cracked back by shooting Mortarian to death with my Tyrant, annoyingly leaving the Plagueburst Crawler on a box (the Rhino too) still, and then charging the Rampager into the Plague Marines engaging my Moirax (bottom side) before consolidating back onto the objective. Chris used rapid ingress to pop his Deathshroud down

Turn 3:

Chris paid me back for my Tyrant’s good dice killing Mortarian by bashing through a ton of shooting damage into my Rampager and then making a long bomb charge with Typhus’ unit to kill off the big guy.

I cracked back by using a Brigand havoc to finish off his Rhino (I’d been shooting it with havocs for turns here) and then killing off all of the rest of his tanks, half of Typhus’ unit, and controlling the center objective again.

Turn 4:

The response was a predictable one. All three Nurglings died, as did the Brigand in the middle. More Teleport Homers happened in my deployment zone.

I fired back by killing everything but one Deathshroud, the Lord of Virulence, the Bloat Drone, and his Nurglings.

Turn 5

We basically talked this one out. He was too far away to charge or shoot my Brigand, but he was also going to score max on primary. I was going to score four on primary and max out purge, and with that the game concluded 94 – 81.

With my scoring 16 points from Purge on this specific mission, we basically called this a tie on any other mission with slightly more permissive scoring. If this had been one of the several that just award controlling 1 or 2 objectives, we both would have scored max on that handily, but my secondaries would have squeaked me a win with 40 on secondary vs. his 39, as the Deathguard list just cannot score max on Deploy Teleport Homers.

So, Conclusions?

It’s only one game, but I’ve played a lot of knights and I’ve played against Deathguard a lot so I’m gonna draw some (probably too definitive) conclusions.

First of all, taking a good fixed objective makes knights really good. That’s not a surprise, but I’m not sure how often that’s going to be the case. I kind of want three or more units of Nurglings so that I can play teleport homers and cleanse, but that would eat into one of my War Dogs and I’m not sure if a list with less than six is viable.

Secondly, I really liked the Tyrant and I was kind of meh on the Rampager, which matches how I felt about the Rampager at worlds (let’s ignore the three games where my jet lagged self got it killed for free shall we?).

This all has me thinking really hard about two possible things to test out next.

So both of these lists are obviously playing double Tyrant. The second tyrant could either be the same long ranged variant or it could be the harpoon/flamer build and wander up the table with the Karnivores.

Speaking of which, I’m playing a lot of Karnivores and I’m not really playing anything else. The reason for this is primarily because the standout feature of Chaos Knights is the Knights of Shade stratagem to walk things through buildings, and Karnivores take advantage of this better than any of the other models we can take.

Secondarily, they’re also tied for the cheapest War Dog in the roster, and frankly I think Executioners are pretty bad.

The second list is trading out an entire War Dog for more Nurglings, and I could also see some combination of dropping the enhancement on the big knight and dropping some Nurglings and taking….something else, such as a unit of Bloodletters, blue or pink horrors, or even flamers potentially.

My concern here would be not actually having enough trading pieces (Bloodletters would help here, they’re very good into infantry of most types), but having a large selection of deep striking non-knights would give me access to Behind Enemy Lines, Teleport Homers, and Cleanse as options for fixed secondaries that I can take every game.

One other thought before I sign off here – a gun build Despoiler might be a nice compromise between the Tyrant and list building constraints, but I have a hard time believing that EDIT especially now that I’ve realized its reroll is so much more limited.

The Tyrant at 510 points feels like the best platform for a titanic knight in the faction right now, so I’m going to try out a few games with that assumption and see how it feels.